# Mill Creek 15 ...? **URL:** \ **Category:** Builder's Forum\ **Created:** [July 13, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223 "2015-07-13T13:44:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Joshua\_Prox1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Joshua\_Prox1](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/Joshua_Prox1)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:44pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/1 "2015-07-13T13:44:23Z")
Hello all, I am a CLC fan and customer... I have a set of Mill Creek 15 plans and am planning to build soon!  I have been browsing around on here and have not been able to find anything on the MC 15; everything I see is about the 13 and 16.5.  Aparently the 15 was discontinued a while back. I guess it just did not sell as well as the others, but it sure was a pretty boat.  I like the lines and proporsions, and it a small enough boat to use practically everywhere there is water... so what gives?  Why is it not here? Thanks, Josh ---
**Author:** ![Joshua\_Prox1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Joshua\_Prox1](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/Joshua_Prox1)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/2 "2015-07-13T13:59:42Z")
   yep I spelled porportion wrong...   I feel like a worm...! ---
**Author:** ![George\_Krewson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@George\_Krewson](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/George_Krewson)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/3 "2015-07-13T14:15:07Z")
Josh, You're worried about spelling proportion wrong here? (Um, twice, actually, but who's counting!) There are some here who feel the combing (i.e., coaming) is what goes around the cockpit of a kayak. So we don't count off for spelling! You're probably right about the Mill Creek 15. If a boat just doesn't sell CLC moves on to what is. More than likely the Wood Duck series was the end for the Mill Creek. No problem, you have the plans and it was a great looking boat. Have fun building and make sure to post photos when it's done. George K ---
**Author:** ![John\_C\_Harris](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/forum.clcboats.com/john_c_harris/32/760_2.png) [@John\_C\_Harris](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/John_C_Harris)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 2:54pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/4 "2015-07-13T14:54:46Z")
The MC15 was around in the 1990's.  It was designed to match the performance and general style of the Klepper K1 kayak, which it did more or less, and the people who have them seem to like them.  We withdrew it back in 2002 or 2003 or so because we couldn't figure out how to sell it.   The problem was that people would see "Mill Creek 13 - Mill Creek 15 - Mill Creek 16.5" listed in our catalog and make a reasonable assumption that this represented a size progression.  This wasn't the case, however.  The Mill Creek 15 was BY FAR the smallest of the three boats in every dimension except length.  It was completely unlike the Mill Creek 13 and the 16.5 in that it was narrow and comparatively less stable.  But no matter how carefully we explained this in marketing materials, we still had too many people build the 15 thinking they were getting a larger, more stable Mill Creek 13, and they got something else entirely.   Ultimately the Mill Creek 15 was the answer to a question no one was asking.  Kind of like the [Nissan Murano Crosscabriolet](http://www.nissanusa.com/crossovers/murano-crosscabriolet), only much prettier. ---
**Author:** ![Laszlo\_Morocz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c68b51/32.png) [@Laszlo\_Morocz](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/Laszlo_Morocz)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 9:05pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/5 "2015-07-13T21:05:16Z")
\>\>It was completely unlike the Mill Creek 13 and the 16.5... I'd have changed the name to something other than Mill Creek and kept selling it, Frog Mortar 15, anyone? Laszlo   ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Klein](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Klein](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/Scott_Klein)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/6 "2015-07-13T22:06:12Z")
John, I'm sure you have been asked this before, but I'll ask it anyway.  How does a boat tickle your fancy enough to make a design?  I figure people must ask you frequently...can you design this or that?  I'm sure a part of it is ultimate sale-ability (maybe sail-ability too) for CLC, but I'd love to hear what else drives you to design and ultimately get to a kit. Scott  ---
**Author:** ![John\_C\_Harris](https://yyz1.discourse-cdn.com/flex007/user_avatar/forum.clcboats.com/john_c_harris/32/760_2.png) [@John\_C\_Harris](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/John_C_Harris)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/7 "2015-07-15T23:47:56Z")
\>\>\>\> I'm sure you have been asked this before, but I'll ask it anyway.  How does a boat tickle your fancy enough to make a design?  I figure people must ask you frequently...can you design this or that?  I'm sure a part of it is ultimate sale-ability (maybe sail-ability too) for CLC, but I'd love to hear what else drives you to design and ultimately get to a kit. \>\>\>\> We went through a phase, between 10 and 15 years ago, when we tried to be scientific about what we put in the catalog.  Literally focus-group type stuff, a lot of outside input and testing.  This tended to produce very polished designs, which is great, although they could be polished to the point of seeming facile. The real problem with this approach was that no link emerged between designs that scored really well in formalized market testing, and subsequent sales performance of the new design.  So much for science! With [55 kayaks](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boat-plans/kayak-plans/?jm=1 "kayak kits") in the catalog at the moment, it's going to have to be something new and very special to inspire me to invest in another kayak design. The [Petrel SG](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/stitch-and-glue-kayaks/stitch-and-glue-petrel.html "Petrel Kayak Kit") and [Petrel Play](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/stitch-and-glue-kayaks/stitch-and-glue-petrel-play.html "Petrel Play Kayak Kit"), recent additions, are pretty good examples.  'Struth that we've already got [several](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/stitch-and-glue-kayaks/stitch-glue-night-heron-kayak/?jm=1) [genuinely](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/stitch-and-glue-kayaks/shearwater-kayaks/shearwater-17-touring-sea-kayak-kit.html) [excellent](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/kayak-kits/shearwater-kayaks/shearwater-sport.html) kayaks that fill the same niche, but Nick Schade has done some things with those two that make them singularly cool, and we're lucky to have them.  (We've been eyeing the [Crowhurst designs](http://watercraft.clearstreamwood.com/shop/plans_kayaks/shrike-r/ "Shrike Kayak kit") with increasing interest.) To answer your question directly, starting about ten years ago, what gets turned into plans and kits is simply whatever I find fun and interesting. This strategy has correlated much more strongly with market success than the focus-groupy, BETA-testy approach.  [I've written fairly extensively about this.](http://www.woodenboatstore.com/product/Professional_Boatbuilder_magazine_152_DIGITAL)   Thus we get designs ranging from the [sublime](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/southwester-dory.html "Southwester Dory Kit") to the [ridiculous](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/proa/madness-31-foot-pacific-proa.html "Madness Proa").  To the extent I have any theory at all about what works, I think it has to do with the fact that we are living in the Golden Age of build-it-yourself boat design.  The build-it-yourself thing has been a sizeable cottage industry [for a hundred years](http://www.clcboats.com/life-of-boats-blog/history-of-boat-kits-I.html "A short history of boat kits"), but the proliferation of designs for amateur builders over the last 20 years is simply astonishing. I can rattle off 30 truly great designs out there that just don't get built much because there are 200 others on the internet that are almost as good.  So there has to be something uniquely appealing about a design to attract builders. There's no giddiness about the possibilities, however.  Economics is known as "The Dismal Science" for a reason.  A kayak like the Petrel Play costs $20,000 to bring to market.  80 to 90% of that is the documentation, the dreaded instruction manual.  Ne'er was a crueler, more thankless task undertaken than the writing of an instruction manual, and ultimately that's the bottleneck on bringing out new designs.  [The people have spoken](http://www.clcboats.com/forum/clcforum/thread/27124.html), emphatically:  Give us awesome instruction manuals, or sod right off.   And there you have it. I can draw something cool in the morning and cut it on the CNC machine in the afternoon, and have a floating prototype in a week.  But an instruction manual?  100, 150, 200 pages without a single overlooked detail, not a word out of order, every step adapted to the meanest understanding?  This takes ages; 18 months is not uncommon. (The [Outrigger Junior](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/outrigger-jr.html "Outrigger Kit"), despite much positive buzz, continues to hang fire while I linger over its sprawling instruction book and ponder feedback from several BETA builders.) There's also the cost.  If I had a dollar for every request for a larger version of [PocketShip](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/pocketship-sailing-pocket-cruiser-kit.html "PocketShip"), I'd have several hundred dollars.  Which would not make a dent in the budget required to bring such a thing to market.  The PocketShip prototype, its 280-page manual, and a very small-scale marketing campaign cost around $50,000 in 2008.  Hull volume varies as the cube of length, so an 18-foot version is going to be hysterically expensive. It would really require an outside party commissioning the design to help defray the development cost.  The [Faering Cruiser](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/clc-faering-cruiser.html "Faering Kit"), PocketShip, and [Madness](http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/proa/madness-31-foot-pacific-proa.html "Proa Kit") were examples of complex designs funded by paying clients.  (I was the paying client for the latter two. CLC could never have amortized the development of those two larks otherwise.) So there you have it.  Whatever I'm fooling around with, and whatever gets a solid instruction manual pieced together, is what makes the catalog.   ---
**Author:** ![Joshua\_Prox1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Joshua\_Prox1](https://forum.clcboats.com/u/Joshua_Prox1)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2015, 10:13am UTC](https://forum.clcboats.com/t/mill-creek-15/43223/8 "2015-07-16T10:13:23Z")
Thanks Guys,  I've read all your stuff and I figured as much... Sale-ability was the key there! As far as the boat itself - she's got my attention so I'm gonna do it!  I'll work it up and see what we get?  I'll keep you all posted on how it all comes together. I like it the way it is drawn out. The lenth seems right, equal parts speed and maneuverability; the flat bottom along with its narrowness seems like it would make the craft initially tippy but "rather" stable in the longrun; and the beam is a nice number for a pleasure float as well as a mediocre mover.  With a bit of practice she should be stable and fast!  That being said, what have others said about the boat?  Apart from the "larger, more stable Mill Creek" thing, did they like it or not, and why?   Thanks, Josh