Loss of Helm to wind

Builder's Forum
1

I hope that I am not the only one suffering from this problem. I am unable to tack to port with the tide against me. The tiller collapses, tucking its self under the stren stem and I have no ability to steer even after returning the tiller to the neutral position and starting again. I may be lucky and have enough speed to carry me but this is no guarantee. More often than not, the bow swings with the tide and I end up gybing, do'able and certainly not cool. I have been crried up river several times, quite embarrassing. Starboard stacks are not so much of an issue unless the wind is very strong. Like a lot of folks across the globe I am not used to a rudder and stock that tilts rather than pivots. I have no crew so no additional wieght in the boat, do I need to add balast e.g. sand bags. She is very light in the bow and I sit as far forward as possible. I have added my own side seats to help with this although I spend most of the time kneeling or standing, often leaning to the leeward side to keep the sail pointing upwards into light winds. It has been commented that my lug rig may not be properly balanced but I have followed the instructions that came with the kit. Down-haull set on the boom @28" and the halyard attcahment to the Yard @42.5". There still seems to be a lot more sail overlapping the mast than many Lug Rig photos I have seen suggest.  As far as I could ascertain throughout the 6 month build the boat is "plumb and true" I cannot see any obvious misalignmet. Can annyone help me? I should mention that I am from Kent in the UK and sail on the river Medway. Most cruising is done to the east, Downstream. Wind can be pretty swirly and cahnge in a heart beat within two cables either side of my Club Slipway.

 

 

 

 

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   Is anybody else wondering what particular kind of boat is this other than sail boat?

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Grumpy, no, you aren’t the only one. If it’s a skerry, I think we have all had this happen. If there’s any wave action and light breeze under 5 knots I either have toward off just a bit to get speed before tack or jibe around. In quiet waters I can scull with the tiller. Slowly to one side then a strong stroke to the other can bring the bow around.

4

I'm not a Skerry sailor, but I did race sail boats a lot. Without piictures this is real confusing.

   "The tiller collapses, tucking its self under the stren stem....."

Don't know how this would happen since tillers usually have a pin through the rudder top to prevent the tiller from falling below "level".  Picture?

 "I spend most of the time kneeling or standing, often leaning to the leeward side to keep the sail pointing upwards into light winds."  In light air standing is counter productive. Too much drag, be low. In light air you may have to sit on the leeward side to keep the sail upwards, but on the lee side to allow for fill. If you keep it straight up you will not be getting any drive and possible put it in irons.

 

As Mummichong suggested skulling the rudder around the tack may be necessary.  I would fall off a little, you're likely too close to the wind, build up speed and then tack.  Sometimes back winding would help. Sometimes if it gets into irons, back wind, move the rudder to the direction you want the stern to be on during the next tack ......as it backs it should tack and then you can release the back wind.

If that is all confusing you might need more sailing lessons.

 

5

Thank You Grumpy and Mummichog.

Yes this is Skerry and I believe that my problem is referred to as Lee Helm or Weather Helm. It appears that the definition (according to Wikipedia) matches the issues I am having.

It has been suggested that I have too much of the Lug Sail before the mast and that I have insufficient rake in the mast its self.

My sail is out of balance and my COE is not over the central point of resistance.

Therefore, and cosnequently the bow wants to swing with the tide and whatever wind is present.

Sadly there is a lack of technical detail on how to set up the sail and mast in the manual accompanying the Kit Pack, both the UK paper version (which is where I am located ) and the USA .pdf version.

I have been able to overcome the lack of control periodcally with gentle sculling as suggested but this is not relaible or fool proof.

What I meant by the rudder tucks its self under the stern is that the rudder pivots around the pintel and gudgeon in both the horizontal and vertical plane. I have checked, double checked the measurements and positionng of the Gudeons /Pintels as per the plan. They are spot on.

In short, the rudder and stock tilts due the profile which is shaped to match the shape of the Stern... it doesn't pivot across a single horizontal plane like a vertical rudder arrangement. If you are familiar with the set up then this will make more sense. Sorry I cannot articulate this any other way. 

When the problem occurs there is natural tendancy to over compenstae and over steer- this means that the rudder and stock creates more drag because it is effectivley being tucked under the boat. It becomes a brake not a steering instrument.

Comments on the upwind sailing seating position are helpful. I built side seats so why not use them, Doh!

Anyway thank you for your replies and it is comorting to note that you have aleast experienced simialr problems atin the past. It is not just "me".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

6

 

   If you don't have much time in sailboats, there are a ton of good sailing books which help with developing an appreciation of the terminology and the principles of sailing.  Bob Bond has one of the best, IMO.  

Anyway, I rigged my skerry with the lug sail set up as defined in the assembly manual and drawings.  It's not too bad.  There really should always be a bit of weather helm at normal to brisk winds for safety.  Lee helm will bite you sooner or later.  Weather helm means that if you have the sail trimmed properly on an upwind course (and the tendency to overtrim is significant) and hold the rudder straight amidships, the boat will tend to head up into the wind.  It should be symmetric on both tacks in this behavior.  

More likely, I'd suspect either luff tension (too much or too little) is off or the main is overtrimmed.  On big boats and small, even (especially) in races, I'm used to seeing maybe 50% of the boats w/ the main trimmed too tightly for the point of sail.  I'm still sorting it out on the skerry after 2 years of sailing it.

On my skerry, I wound up with a bit of twist in the skeg which tends to create a bit of starboard helm.  That is, it tends to turn faster to starboard than port which means tacking from port tack to starboard tack (which means turning to port thru the wind) is slower and more iffy.  That's just asymmetry in my construction, not a true weather or lee helm.

The rudder on the skerry is indeed angled, as is intended.  In fact, on a lot of more trad keelboats, you'll see they have an angled rudder axis with the rudder mounted on the trailing edge of the keel.  It helps reduce helm effort on bigger boats w/ a "barndoor" rudder.  It also means that the helmsman needs to be careful in how much helm he uses, i.e., how far the tiller is deflected from center. If you just throw the rudder over as far as it can go to tack, you'll create stalled flow on the rudder, a lot of drag, and not as much turning moment as you think.  The boat will slow down, not turn as quickly as you want and likely end up in irons.  I'm still developing the touch after a couple of years.

To get these light boats to tack, you need to pick your spot in the seas so you get a flatter bit, and ease the helm and sheet a bit, to maybe a close reach, to pick up speed.  Then you can ease the rudder back over smoothly and get (hopefully) a smooth turn that carries speed into the eye of the wind and then through.  Ease the sheet and let it turn further to a reach to gather speed before working it back up to a beat.

I'm coming back to small boats after years w/ a 30' keelboat and the tack is very different in this boat than my big one.  In addition to a fraction of the momentum, the daggerboard foil is very thin compared to my lead keel and requires more water velocity over it in order to work well compared to that big fat keel which could use tiny headway to create keel lift.  I would not mess with the sail position much unless the test w/ the rudder amidship shows major weather/lee helm.

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   Mummichog gives plenty of good advice. I'd add two more thoughts. (1) Coming about is hardest in very light wind and very strong wind, so practice in conditions of fair, steady wind (6-12 mph). As you get the feel of it, you'll soon be able to handle more wind conditions. (2) You mentioned that you sit as far forward a possible. That is going to raise your rudder out of the water somewhat, and an inch less rudder will make a world of difference. Experiment with sitting a bit more aft.

I sail the Northeaster Dory and sit well aft, so much so that I have to move forward briefly to get around the tiller extension when tacking. I'm pretty skinny and may not be a good role model. Still, the idea is to make sure your rudder has enough purchase on the water.