N.E.D. Reactions

Builder's Forum
1

I'm glad to see that the Nesting Expedition Dinghy is now officially out for all to see and discuss. In its own way, it's as much a departure from the CLC past as the Peeler. As a recent convert to Bolger's box theory, I'm excited by the possibilities inherent in this boat.

These boxes move a lot more gracefully than the shape suggests. My double-ended, flat-bottomed, Bolger schooner with almost no flare has achieved double digit speeds (knots or miles)  on a 16-foot waterline, so the box theory works. You just have to get past the, well, boxiness of the boats. In that regard, John's managed to add some grace to the lines and, even better, come up with a rationale for doing so (something other than "a pram bow makes it look like a bathtub").

I do have one nit to pick with his description over on his blog - 75"x43"x36" is in no way a cube. Hope his ballast calculations are better than his geometry :-)

But seriously, the collapsed size and three sections are a great advantage for those of us whose boat storage facilities are saturated. This boat will definitely ease the storage problems of a new addition to the fleet. It will also fit very nicely into the back of even my Chevy S10. With the shallow draft and sections I'd be able to launch it from the no-trailer beach landings that normally only kayaks and canoes are allowed to use.

When I visited the prototype (back when it was still called NanoShip, before the name was appropriated for the other new design), one of the things I saw, which John did not explicitly mention in his blog, are the alignment tabs that position and lock the bulkheads into place during assembly. Lots of thought has gone into the build process, which should make it a quick build in spite of all the parts.

I like the idea of the downloadable plans and wiki manual. Though honestly, John's already released enough information for any experienced boatbuilder to build one. It's tempting to run over to CLC, pick up a load of wood, glass, epoxy, etc. and show up with one at Okoumefest, but that'd be gauche so I won't do that to him. The point is, it's not that far away from a wiki kit.

I am a little skeptical about the chine logs. I'd investigate the possibility of changing the build order and using a continuous taped fillet instead. I don't like the chine log's edge, nor its propensity to trap dirt and rot.

Finally, considering that in this text and twitty age nothing is allowed to use more than 3 letters, N.E.D. (or NED) will become the default designator for this boat. This is ambiguous with the NE Dory. I know that NanoShip passed to another boat, so maybe it's time for a contest to rename this class yet again. Something like JED (John's Expedition Dory), maybe? There's precedent with John's Sharpie.

Anyway, I'm really looking forward to this design becoming available. Wonder if it'll make it to Okoumefest?

Have fun,

Laszlo

2

>>>>When I visited the prototype (back when it was still called NanoShip, before the name was appropriated for the other new design)>>>

This was done mainly to throw off Laszlo's investigative reporting. ;)

Nesting Expedition Dinghy

Nesting Expedition Dinghy

 

3

   A wiki-style build manual would be fantastic. The internet (this forum, Pocketship forum, build blogs) contain an absolute wealth of build tips, hints, and warnings that far exceed anything that one person/one company could put together. BUT, its spread throughout hundreds of threads and websites. I could imagine a wiki with one page for each page of the build manual that can be expanded by builders with hints and tips for each step of construction. And would allow instant fix for errors in the manual. Full-color photos. I think it's a great idea.

4

I think CraigG's idea would be great for all of the manuals. Your login could indicate what boat kits/plans you have purchased and give you access to those wiki pages.

-Dan

5

 

Brilliant.  A word that always springs to mind when the designer is John Harris.  This design tempts.  I do wonder as a practical matter though, whether those who lack Lazlo's Chevy S10 and native optimism might need a trailer to haul 150lbs (since that's just the hull, not counting accoutrements). It seems to me the Great Divide is between cartop/carrying on shoulders to launch anywhere, vs. trailer launching at boat ramps.  Once we commit to a trailer, and storing a trailer in winter--boat size weight and configuration become more flexible.  Since we are talking trailer, is a long fixed keel of say six or eight inches inconceivable?  Certainly a long keel in a small boat encountering waves bigger than it is long can lose its grip.  And a long fixed keel would slow down rowing.  But this boat is for lakes bays rivers and estuaries. And rowing seems ancilllary.  Is there a boat length where a long keel ceases to work and leeboards/centerboards/daggerboards become the only viable solution?   

 

 

 

6

Impressive little boat.  As much as I respect Bolger's talent and experience, I never got used to the chopped-off bow on the Micro.  I once had a Pacific Seacraft Filcka with a fairly blunt bow.  She was a great sailer and handled bad weather (up through gales) like a real lady.  However, in light air, when sailing into a chop on Buzzard's Bay she could be enough of a pain to make me crank up the diesel.  I've always believed those abbreviated Bolger bows would have the same problem.  I like John's design better.

I have no experience with leeboards. Their ability to free up interior space is wonderful, but their potential weakness in rough weather has always concerned me.   I'd love to know if John would consider Matt Leyden-type chine runners a practical alternative.

Cheers,

Dick

7

   I think she is a terrific little boat. Just call her Ned, great name.

So pleased to see John's full blog about her. The comment about on-line Wiki to avoid the build manual blockage and huge investment needed in a manual, which could have meant not marketing her, is a great relief. It allows a low volume product to come to market.

I actually think she could be very successful and a popular design.

So many people are restricted on build and storage space. Wonderful that she can be built in a warm bedroom in the winter and she can wriggle out the door when completed. 

In the testing program, those high sides will need a method of getting the skipper back on board after a capsize. I know that's unlikely but capsize testing is important and getting back onboard even more so. Stern ladder is not really the solution because the boat will sail away from you when act as a sea anchor at the transom. I think a rope stirrup, or rope running bows to stern which drops to just the right depth would do it. Scamp has done this. Second foot in rowing oar opening and your back aboard.

I really really like this little boat. There are may places here in the UK she is perfect for. I would even help organise your East Coast Rally when you ship a load over in a container.

Brian

 

 

 

 

 

8

   If two kits have been cut already, would a wiki build and downloadable plans mean that once sailing trials are passed, that a ply CNC kit could be available straight away? Builders in the UK through Fyne, and Aus through Denman could also buy a kit.

9

>>The only change that was made during construction was to shift the mizzen mast to >>the centerline, and to substitute a push-pull tiller arrangement for the conventional >>tiller shown here.

Not to mention having the bowsprit dress to starboard instead of port.

Laszlo

 

10

   Interesting comment on changing to a push pull tiller. Makes loads of sense, not just to clear the mizzen, but easier to use when sitting facing forward on the floor, with the tiller running over the shoulder. Relaxed hand just pulling and pushing. 

What do you reckon to sitting positions when sailing, thinking about keeping weight low and connected to the boat, ie human ballast.

Running down wind, sit at back facing forwards. 

Upwind? Facing forward will mean falling over sideways or sliding downwind to the lee side, not helping with ballast.

Sitting sideways in normal dinghy position. Put some furniture 42" inches apart and sat on the floor, feet braced across the "beam". At 5'10" a bit short of leg room. As I sat slighty higher on cushions it became more and more comfortable bracing. At gunnel height legs would not reach opposite hull side to brace. So it looks like some sort of storage box, bedroll, something comfy to sit on at the right height will work well.

What are other's thoughts?

Brian

 

 

 

11

   Looks like when nested she will fit inside my VW T5 van

 

12

It's becoming very obvious who'll be doing the first U.K. build :-)

Laszlo

 

13

   have to say, it becomes more difficult to resist.

On the chine logs. One thing they do help greatly with is ensuring a smooth hull curve. I was amazed when a rather floppy looking hull transformed as the chine log was clamped to the sides. Perhaps use cedar to prevent any chances of future rot?

Of course, greatly looking forward to seeing her sailing and pass John's various tests, including capsize, stronger wind gybing and so on. I love the idea of pulling her out of my van and assembling her in front of puzzled eyes.

Brian

 

 

 

14

   I contacted the UK agent and he has kindly come back to me with prices. He mentioned that kits are already being sold in the US? As much as I would like to order a kit, the quote is rather more than I can manage. However the materials cost for the ten sheets of ply I can manage so will have to take the extra time to cut my own kit from plans. With straight sides to many components it should be more straight forward than most. Looking forward then to plans being available. Especially if they can not only be downloaded but printed full size at my local printshop. That would be a huge help in getting this little boat built and sailing.

Brian

15

Brian,

I've only recently become seriously interested in doing a first build so I have a lot (actually, just about everything) to learn about the experience. Your last post has me again wondering about the difference in total costs of a build from plans versus a build with a kit. I've not come across a thread, either here or on WBF, that speaks of it. I wonder if you'd be able to offer a rough estimate of the costs for a build of the NED from plans v. a kit build? And, if you can say, would the variance be generally and roughly applicable to other builds, the Skerry 15, for example? Thanks.

Sullivan

  

16

 Sullivan, if you have a good look at the Skerry pages. 

http://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/wooden-sailboat-kits/skerry-rowing-sailing-dinghy-kit.html

you will see all the relevant prices you need. The plans prices, kit prices and near the lower end of the list is the materials requirement for plans builders. If you look there you can see all you need listed. Price up the materials and you can decide which meets your needs best. A kit saves a great deal of hastle and ensures a better outcome.

Brian

 

 

17

Brian,

Are you sure that the agent wasn't quoting the price for the nesting eastport pram? I don't see the NED listed anywhere for sale.

Laszlo

 

18

   No, we discussed the 10 sheets she needs. The 17' Northeast Dory uses 7 for comparison. They quoted for just plywood supply as well. Perhaps it was more that this is how she will be supplied in the US as well. No reason not to request a kit price. I would have thought testing will have to be completed before actual delivery of any kits.

19

For now I have no timeline for release of plans and kits.  We've shipped one "Beta" kit to an experienced builder, so there are two in the world at present.  But whether or not we do anything with this, and when, depends upon vigorous sea trials.  Here we were a few days ago:

Nesting Expedition Dinghy by Chesapeake Light CraftNor will I venture a guess at the cost of kits, other than to note that when you cram a quart into a pint pot you're still paying for the quart.  Even tightly nested for CNC cutting it requires ten sheets of plywood;  the 17-foot Northeaster Dory requires just five (seven for plans-builders).  Phil Bolger would be horrified. He had a fixation on minimizing the plywood sheet-count in his designs.

Plans are always the last thing to get done with these projects, exactly the opposite of what you'd think.  Sure, I do a detailed general arrangement, but that's devoid of the careful dimensioning that scratch builders need.  THAT work is a gigantic graphic arts project.  It has to be both legible and perfect.  While done in CAD, there is absolutely nothing automated about the process, and it can take 50 hours for a boat this size.  Typical:

Typical Boat Plans Layout


The plans and patterns for Madness-the-proa literally took years.  I bet there were 2000 man-hours in those drawings.

20

That leeboard bearing is strangely fascinating. It inspires some odd thoughts. Imagine a rowing-only version with an axle through that bearing. As you row upriver and get to a dam, you line up in a slot with a water-powered ferris wheel  which locks onto the axle, picks you up and swings you over the dam an deposits you gently into the water behind it. All the while, the boat rotates around the axle so you stay level.

I think I'm having snow-induced hallucinations.

Laszlo