Can you sail an Expedition Wherry?

Builder's Forum
1

I've searched for this on the forum a variety of times, and don't believe any threads have really dived into it.... Can you sail an Expedition Wherry??

I know i know... CLC makes a HUGE variety of great boats, all suited to their own little niches just fine... But yet I'm always asking for more.  I get it, every boat is a compromise...  A great paddling boat doesn't mean its great to row, or sail, vice versa.  But if its a light easily driven hull, it should be able to sail, right?

Don't get me wrong, i love the Waterlust Sailing Canoe concept.  But I have no desire to use the Hobie drive thingy...  And I don't think at 36" wide it would be a great paddling boat, so at that point its just a sailboat to me.  So I ask myself, can a sliding seat be rigger into the Waterlust Canoes and them be sailed...?  And I think the answer is yes, although the daggerboard might need to be moved a couple inches over to make way for a dropin sliding seat... and the dropins get in the way of maneuverability, so maybe something more like the rig for the Oxford Shell would be better... 

And then i get to looking at that Expedition Wherry and I ask myself... how would that sail?  JCH designed to handle rougher water, but perhaps it would need a little more freeboard near the bow if it was be driven hard by a mast up front.  But I just don't know enough about sailing to really answer those questions.  I'd assume the Waterlust hull would be better driven with more volume in the bow... but I don't actually know that, because i don't design boats.

So in my head, thats what I want.  I want an Expedition Wherry that can sail.  It could probably paddle with a longer double bladed paddle just fine, although I'd rather hike out a little with a single bladed paddle.  There is no way it could be worse than pushing a rubber raft or dinghy around.  So if it could sail, I think it could be the triple threat boat of my dreams. 

And what else do we have to hold on to in 2020 than dreams?! 

So thats what I have been wake dreaming about of late, dropping that Waterlust Sailplan on the Expedition Wherry, with a bolt on rig ala Oxford Shell, which you might be able to set a plank on for hiking out like an IC...  Or moding a Waterlust canoe to do similar... <sigh>

Happy Thanksgiving everyone~

~Johnathan

2

   Jonathan,

The Jimmy Skiff, Skerry, Dories... all can be rowed or sailed. Switching  a boat from sliding seat rowing to sailing is not very pratical. You will alway show up with the wrong rig (sailing or sliding seat). Might as well have two boats.

Stop dreaming, pick a boat and biuld it. Then you can live the dream.

Joel

3

Jonathan,

As you stated, all boats are compromises to suit a set of requirements. That being said, the Southwester Dory is designed for sail, oar, and outboard power. It's one of the few boats I know of that does all 3 reasonably well. It's more expensive than the Expedition Wherry, but cheaper than 2 separate boats.

Cheers,

Dick

4

They put sailing rigs on kayaks, right? That's got to be a bigger mismatch than a small sail on an Expedition Wherry. As far as mixing sliding seat rowing and sailing, there's always the Faering Cruiser.

But it has some special feature to make that work, like water ballast that can be drained when switching to oars, a large cockpit with room for the sliding seat. a really quick remove/install sliding seat installation that will let the cockpit be cleared for sailing in 1/2 a minute or less and a spacious forward storage space with a large hatch for stowing the seat and tracks while sailing. None of that applies to the Wherry, so Joel's comments about switching rigs are spot on.

If you do want to experiment with sailing a Wherry, I'd say don't plan on using the sliding seat setup at the same time as the sail and be prepared to get dunked. On a warm sunny day it could be a real fun thing, sort of like the Chesapeake log canoes. If you do get a good match between the sailing rig and the hull, it'll probably scoot right along in a straight line though never exceed hull speed. It'll never be as good a sailing boat as one specifically designed for it. I think the best you can hope for is something like sails on a kayak with no outriggers - sail when you can, paddle when you have to and be prepared to get wet in an instant.

I'd say that as long as you're willing to accept the limitations and the risk and can afford the extra wood, sails, epoxy, etc. it would be fun to try, but be aware that it could also be a total waste of time and money if it turns out that you don't like that kind of wacky sailing. 2 different boats may be the smartest thing, just as the guys said.

Have fun,

Laszlo

 

 

5

I'm with Laszlo on this one (as usual).  A narrow-ish, slack-bliged creature like the Expedition Wherrry (the things which, no doubt, contribute to making her an exceptionally efficient rowing boat) can only yield a marginal sailboat, at best, and likely to be a disappointment, unless you expect the fun to come from sailing along on a razor's edge sweating bullets trying to nibble upwind ineffetively every once in a while, instead of toiling away at the oars sweating buckets but making effecient progress straight into the teeth of a headwind.  We can make fun for ourselves, even outrageous fun, out of doing all sorts of inefficient things (like trying to make balls go into little holes in the ground many yards away by hitting them with funny looking sticks, i.e., golf), but we can't make effecient sailboats out of highly effecient rowboats without making some substantial compromises, never mind the fun.  There is no equivlance between "efficient" and "fun".

Just my 0.000038723 cents worth.  Let's not forget to be thankful today, indeed every day, for our wonderfully varied, splendidly fun, CLC boats!

.....Michael

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   Johnathan, Did a double take when I saw this comment of yours, because I've been wanting to do this myself for years now to my Wherry. So far, have made only baby steps.  I've got the mast step installed, and made a kind of removable lee board receiver slot out of 2 x 4's, that slides in over the gunwale.  The slot in it is just big enough to receive the aluminum centerboard I'd cannibaled from a Walker Bay 10 12 years ago.  And the other day a neighbor out of the blue donated a rudder and tiller setup to me only because he knew I was into sailing and was trying to sell on EBay all his sailing gear.  It's a one gudgeon/pintle setup which might work just fine for the Exp Wherry given how small the transom surface area is.  The neighbor also donated a mast from a Hobie that ought to fit right into the mast step, and a few sails.  So now all I've got to do is install the rudder hardware, and try out the mast and sail.  I can't even imagine hauling along the sliding seat setup for the Wherry while also trying to sail it, as in my opinion the seat contraption just takes over the cockpit no matter where you put it.  You need to have space in that cockpit to be able to move around right quick, without a sliding seat in the way, as you the sailor are also going to be the ballast.  A long canoe paddle might come in handy though.

7

   Thanks Joel and Dick, but I'm looking for something fairly small, able to be carried or dragged by one person and cartoppable. Not sure either of the dories fit that criteria. I didn't mention that originally as part of the criteria, but anything that requires a trailer will ultimately be used far less... And sail, oar, and paddle are my aims. Not interested in electric or dino power. 

Lazlo, that Faering Cruiser is a dream boat for sure! I absolute asteem is as a masterul design, and maybe one day would like to build something that large and ambitious, but for now staying smaller. The Chesapeake Log Canoe concept is almost dead on what I'm looking for, just in a smaller form factor. I don't mind the idea of getting wet, thats half the fun of going boating (so says the whitewater raft guide in me). 

Daniel, curious to hear how it goes! From a rig perspective I'm thinking more about the built in rig similar to the Oxford Shell II, which uses that Wintech rig. I've seen an image of a tandem Expedition Wherry drawn with that rigging setup, and thats definitely what I'd plan for in the build. The main difference is that I'd want to use a bow rig, for the reason as you mention to keep that area of the cockput less encumbered for movement. Canoe paddle is required equipment in my mind. 

Last thought about small modifications to the hull... The Expedition Wherry has the bottom panels widening and turning vertical towards the stern for the stem of that wineglass transom... I'd thin them out on the inside and keep them shaped flat through to the transom.  That would lower the wetted surface, and then a folddown rudder (needed to sail anyways) could take care of tracking. 

The biggest question in my mind is leeboard or.....? But probably Leeboard. I don't think the added efficiency of a daggerboard makes sense in the further complications to construction, plus how it would work with a built in sliding row rig.

My biggest inspiration is probably the Bufflehead Sailing Canoe design, but I want something that can row as well, not just sail and paddle.

~Johnathan

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I'll chime in here once more to say that, in my opinion, sail + row + paddle + cartopable is a pretty tall order, and I don't know that there is anything in the CLC catalogue that's going to do that without some modification, plus having one of the four things be less than satisfactory.

In the category of sail + row - paddle + cartopable CLC boats, the Eastport Pram is probably the best fit.  Passagemaker, Skerry and Northeast Dory are all good sail + row for sure, but cartopable is something of a stretch unless you can, by strength, skill and cunning, get comfortable with getting something like 100 pounds on and off your car's top.  A full size pickup truck (maybe one of the larger midsized trucks, too) will handle a Passagemaker in the bed (not a theory--I've done that), but that's probably not something for which you're going to get a truck if you don't already have one.  I don't reckon any of these would be any great shakes to paddle; the Passagemaker certainly isn't.

The Sassafras 16 can be set up to row--there are pictures of such in the gallery--and it might actually work okay given the 39" beam.  The size and shape are about as close to a Guideboat, the quintesential row + paddle + carry boat, as anything CLC has.  Maybe the CLC canoe sailing rig could be adapted to work, if you want to go the "convertable trimarine" route.

The Mill Creek 16.5 has a sail rig option, and there are photos of them being set up with sliding seat rowing rigs; however, as has been noted, those would interfere mightily with paddling or sailing.  CLC's convertible trimaran rig might work on this boat, too--I think there are photos of such in the gallery.  You might be able to contruct some short "flip out" outrigers to get enough spread for decent fixed seat rowing, if you can work out how to change the seating between paddling and rowing without cluttering her up too badly.

Again, just my way less'n two cents' worth here....

.....Michael

 

9

Oh, and I meant to add, I've sailed Hugh Horton's own Bufflehead as well as one of his older Serendipity sister boats.  Lovely to paddle or sail.  It's like sailing with a sail rig stuck in your belly botton and the boat is just there to make the water flow around you better.  I'm told Bufflehead is a tricky build (plywood), not for the novice.  The Serendipity boats were Bell canoe hulls cut down and fitted with decks.  Not for rowing, as far as I know.

.....Michael

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   Agreed.  No way I'd ever cartop my Skerry. Just out of respect for the car, the Skerry, and me.  Not happening!

11

Jonathon,

Given your cartopper requirement, I would second Gramps' recommendation of the Passagemaker Dinghy. They're pretty boats, stable, sail and row well, can handle a light outboard, and come in standard and take-apart models. Every year I toy with the idea of building one to replace the the inflatable I use to get to and from my Peeler Skiff's mooring.

Happy Holidays,

-Dick-

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Say, Dick, regarding your thoughts for a tender to come at your Peeler Skiff on her mooring, have you looked at the Eastport Ultralight Dinghy?  Seriously cartopable, decent load carrier, and not as bad a rowboat as one might expect for such a short thing.  Can't say it any better than John Harris himself: "But I've been delighted with what it can do.  You can row the boat faster than you can walk, so a long pull across the harbor is just no big deal.  Nor do loads up to 400 pounds seem to slow it down any."

No sailing, no motoring, but passable rowing and outstanding portability without having to fool with all the taking apart and putting back together as with the Eastport Nesting Dinghy or, in my case, the Passagemaker Take Apart.  If I had ever won the annual CLC photo contest grand prize, I might have used the prize money to get one of these just to have as a low overhead impulse boat for those occasions when time is short and I don't really have enough time to get even the Passagemaker into play.  Heck, it might even fit in the back of our new_to_us Mazda 5 with all the back seats folded flat--I'll have to check.

Mind you, I'm a nut, and I like rowing better than paddling, though I did think maybe a Mill Creek 13 to paddle only would have been a pretty good impulse boat, too, if a bit more difficult to store.  Heck, you could probably bring an Eastport Ultralight inside, prop it up on its side, throw in some big cushions, and use it for a setee in your living room!  An old friend has a 17th floor apartment on Lakeshore Drive in Chicago, and I like to imagining him keeping one of those in his living room, taking it down in the elevator, and then using it to row out to his engineless canoe yawl riding on a mooring there within sight of his livingroom window.  There's a pleasant dream for Christmas Eve...if things ain't iced over.  <;-)

Okay, yes, sorry folks...we are way off topic here....

.....Michael
 

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Gramps,

I'm afraid that toying with the idea of a Passagemaker is a euphemism for for wishful thinking to scratch my sailing itch. I have a perfectly good SeaEagle PackFish 7 that gets me the 100 yards from the beach to my mooring. It rolls up in a backpack and inflates in moments. My building time next season will be taken up with enhancements to and re-painting of my Peeler Skiff, About Time. That was a major topic at our family's Christmas Zoom meeting.

Over the last few years, About Time has become very much a family boat and project. Last season we added lockable storage, rod holders, a Bimini, self starting, and a solar panel to keep the battery trickle charged for the bilge pump. She is the best investment I've ever made for fun.

-Dick-