Northeaster Dory versus Passagemaker

Builder's Forum
1

Hi all,

I am early in the process of selecting a sailboat to build.  I'm eager for a day sailer that can hold two to four adults and is cartoppable.  I don't intend to ever row the thing: it will be sails only.  I have been very much drawn to the Northeaster Dory.  At 17' and 800# load capacity, it is probably at the large end of what I need (but still cartoppable).  At the opposite end of the scale, the Passagemaker at 11'7" and 650# capacity is probably the smallest I would consider.

As I said, I've been looking mostly at the Dory, however, I'm a bit concerned about its use as a daysailer:

First, the sail area on the dory seems quite small.  At 68 sq. ft., it is only 87% of the Passagemaker.  How does this impact its sailing performance?

The dory doesn't have any buoyancy chambers.  If she capsizes, is she headed for Davy Jones' locker?  Is that the reason for the smaller sails?

If not, is there any reason why the Gunter Sloop rig cannot or should not be mounted on the dory?  In addition the larger size, I'm also concerned that the dory's boom looks a lot closer to the gunwales than I'd like.

Does anyone have experience with both boats?  Which do you prefer?

2

No experience with the Passagemaker, but I just finished contruction of a Dory for launch next week, so I can respond to two points:  first, the Dory has foam floatation under each seat; second, having just hauled by boat out of the backyard to put on a trailer, the Dory in my opinion would be a total beast to car top and drive.  I'll be able to tow, launch and sail/row single handed.  Even if car topping were possible, you'd need a crew to get the boat off the car and in the water, and back on the car.  I build a frame which sits on the gunnels on which to carry spars and oars when trailering.  Where will you put all that stuff if car-topping?

3

Hi Frank,

Thanks for the response.  My idea behind cartopping was based on this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JP6O3cNEc4o

He has more info here as well:http://www.gacooarlocks.com/car-topping.pdf

His dory is 17 feet, though it is a bit lighter than the Northeaster at 70 pounds.  As you can see, the dory sits upright on the rack.  I figured rigging could be stowed inside the hull.

Have you confirmed the weight of your finished dory?

4

I have to say that is very cool!  The Northeaster Dory description shows a weight of 100 lbs.  Haven't weighed mine, but it will be a good bit more, especially since I put in floor boards.  Mine was easily carried, however, by one person at each end.  But I seriously doubt I could lift the bow over my head (especially at my age).  Also, the man in the video is apparently unconcerned with rain, which would turn his upright dory into a car-crusher-bath tub.  Mine on the trailer can also collect rain, but I can bail it out easily (he may have a drain plug).  My trailer has angled bunks that support and stabilize the hull.  Does our friend have the same ability on his roof top? 

5

Hi waldowv,

The words "cartoppable", "four adults", and "sails only" aren't often seen in the same sentence together. It's not entirely impossible, if you accept that compromises will be necessary. Since you are early in the process, you might benefit from taking a hard realistic look at your requirements, if you haven't already. That will help you evaluate what some good trade-offs might be.

Is a trailer out of the question? They do have their drawbacks, but they also open up an entire world of watercraft choices. How many people will normally be on board? Will you be mostly sailing solo, with an occasional friend, and you think up to three other people might be nice once or twice a season? Could you live with social sailing being limited to two on board at a time? Or is it going to be two couples or four friends or family members all using the boat together on a frequent basis? 

How will you sail it, and in what conditions? Do you envision serene sailing cruises in mostly light winds, or do you like to get out in the rough stuff, and have lots of thrills? A boat that can "hold" four adults might be okay for the former (or for rowing), but impossible for the latter with that many on board.

I haven't built either of these CLC boats, but have been looking at them closely, along with the Skerry. All have modest sail areas, I think because their sleek hulls are also meant for rowing. None of them will sink, but none of them would be easy to bail out after a capsize or swamping either, so that's another good reason to rig them conservatively.

My personal preference would be the optional balanced lug rig, for all of these boats. That rig is very simple to set up and reef, it performs well, and does not get in the way of a crew. You could fit four adults in a NE Dory and I think it would be fine for rowing, but probably awkward for sailing in anything but a light breeze. But I haven't had the chance to try them, so that's only my guess as an experienced small boat sailor.

I'll be interested in following your thinking about what boats might best meet your needs.

Old Yeller 

6

Hi,

Good advice above!

My 5 cents: None of the three boats you mentioned (NE Dory, Passagemaker Dinghy or Skerry) are 4 person sailing boats regardless of weight capacity. Two adults will work fine on all three models. The NE Dory and Passagemaker Dinghy will do fine with three if you row. On the NE Dory you'll do fine with a additional dog and some heavy gear if you row. But in all cases forget four. In the CLC lineup you would need to look at the Pocketship if you have to accommodate four adults. (I realize that this would be an entirely different proposition - but a great one.)

Trying to cartop any of these sailing boats is a bad idea that you'd always regret. BTW, the video does not depict the CLC NE Dory but something rather smaller, more slender and with less freeboard.  I think that as soon as you look at a CLC NE Dory in person you'd understand what I mean.

Have you sailed before? Dinghy sailing is all about being able to quickly adjust human ballast based on point of sail, wind pressure on sails and sea conditions. The lighter the boat the trickier it gets and the more important it is to do correctly and "pronto". I cannot see this being done on a NE Dory with four adults aboard - except perhaps in very light air when it does not matter. In any case, it would not be my idea of sailing fun.

OTOH, the new Faering boat which John Harris is in the process of adding on the CLC lineup might be worthy of your consideration... less bulk than the Pocketship but certainly up to the task of accommodating four.

In all cases, I would opt for the balanced lug rig as the choice that is going to provide greatest versatility, excellent performance and the most room in the boat. Several years ago I built a lug-rigged passagemaker dinghy and it is a rugged little boat that stands up to a blow. For sailing it works very well for two... rowing works well for two or three. 

Hope this helps.

Chris

 

7

Excellent timing for this tread.  I am also looking for a day sailor, but in my case, it must fit in the bed of my pickup. We live in North Florida and the primary use will be day sailing solo or with my wife in locations/situations that would be too much work to take our trailer sailor (Nimble Arctic).  As a secondary use, I would like something that is capable of a longer solo multi-day beach camping adventure like the Florida 120.  Other boats that I am considering are the Eastport Pram (nesting) and Mill Creek 16.5 with sail (not the CLC sail rig).  The Mill Creek would be transported on overhead racks vice in the bed.  I lean towards the PMD with Gunter Sloop rig because I believe that it will be the best sailor but I have yet to find any quantitative data regarding how well it sails.

Chris, I know that you have a lug rig, but can you share some numbers regarding how well your PMD sails?  How high does it point?  What is the fastest that you have had it sailing and what were the conditions?  Also, how fast can you row it at a sustained pace?

Any thoughts that anybody else has would be appreciated.  Thanks.

8

Mark, I cannot provide "hard numbers". Without a doubt, the lug-rigged Skerry (on account of its length) will be faster than a similarly rigged PMD.  I would expect the lug rig to give up a few degrees on weatherliness over the gunter rig but not by much and moreover, the lug rig offers great advantages on all other points of sail. Going on a broad reach provides indeed great balance. Furthermore, the lug can be dowsed in seconds and rolled up neatly next to you when you want to row.

Rowing the PMD is fun and easy. In higher winds she presents quite a bit of windeage... but then, why would I want to row when there is wind?

With the lug rig, it is easy to drop the sail and unstep the mast whilst underway - row row row through cats paws - and then again step the mast and hoist the sail as the breeze comes back to life.

Though I have one set of reef points on my lug sail, I have never used it even though I've had C-Lute in all white-caps (20+knots) conditions on numerous occasions. Of course, if I had wanted to sail close-hauled I would have reefed at that point. Instead I was just out for the gusto.

Remember that when you aim for good upwind performance it is not only a matter of the sail configuration but almost more importantly (on these light boats anyway) of correct weight distribution. For example, on the Skerry or PMD regardless of rig, you will not get much upwind performance when sitting way back - unless you have crew up front. When sailing alone the boats will reward you for keeping your weight very close to the dagger board.

If my foremost criterion were a single-handed long-distance multi-day adventure I would go for the Skerry with lug rig. If so, I would also consider some of the modifications made by CLC for John Guider on his expedition Skerry.

Cheers!

 

 

9

 

...regarding the lug rig, John Harris' blog entry "Lug Nuts" should be required reading.