Hello all. A question on the Jimmy Skiff regarding righting and recovery from a capsize. This seems like a gread little first build boat, but I'm concerned about the lack of built-in floatation and the amount of water it would take on in a capsize. I'm wondering if sealed side seats were added whether this would help with this. Many skiffs have sealed bulkheads and seats to reduce the amount of water taken on, and to provide waterproof storage as well.
Any ideas on this?
Actually, just had another look at the gallery photos and did notice that there is a large sealed seat aft. Is this enough floatation though?
The boat will be emptied by the capsize, so all you need is sufficient flotation to float the boat level enough to bail out. Since that's a wooden boat it should be enough.
I'd be more concerned about re-righting the boat. It's a very stable boat what with that flat bottom, so for it to have tipped you're looking at pretty extraordinary conditions. I wonder if it could be re-righted in conditions that caused it to flip in the first place.
I'm thinking that the more likely scenario is that the boat gets swamped. In that case, as long as you haven't overloaded it you should be fine.
As the builder you can add anything you want (lockers, air tanks, etc.). Just keep in mind the weight and balance effects. A dry bag might be a more practical solution.
Have fun,
Laszlo
My assessment is that all the CLC undecked sailboats would be easy to right, but would come up with so much water aboard that it might be impossible to bail them out and continue sailing in the conditions that are most likely to accompany a capsize.
Wave action or crew movement will cause the large amount of water in the boat to slosh vigorously side-to-side, which drastically destabilizes the boat and allows more water to pour in over the sides faster than it can be bailed out.
Sometimes it is possible (but extremely awkward and tiring) to bail enough water out while hanging onto the outside of the boat to raise the gunwales higher out of the water. But then how will you reboard without filling it back up with water, or completely recapsizing? A skilled athlete might be able to slither up over the transom, but I wouldn't count on doing that until you have proved it in practice.
Extra floation along the sides would help the boat come up drier. Float bags or even boat fenders could be lashed under the gunwales. But most builders probably come to realize that these boats are intended to be used on sheltered waters, and should be sailed with the understanding that it might not be possible to recover from a capsize and continue sailing without outside assistance. If that doesn't suit you, you might be happier with a boat like a Sunfish or a Laser.
Old Yeller
The Jimmy Skiff is an open motorboat not a sailboat. Wouldn't the weight of the motor in the stern tend to keep the top of the transom very close to the water when swamped. How easy is it to bail out in any kind of waves with a typical outboard attached?
Oops, my bad: I confused the Jimmy Skiff with the Peeler Skiff. I guess one sort of Blue Crab sounds like another now that I am used to Dungeness, sorry.
Hope you dont mind if I apply this same discussion to the NE Dory...
Have you guys seen the video of Neil Calore?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyK3TYNEs1w
Note air bags both fore and aft, and what appear to be pool floaties on each side.
I bet his boat would sit pretty high in the water on it's side... The higher the floatation the less likely to turtle so the CLC floatation being in the bottom of the boat could possibly help it turtle.
Cant remember where I read this but in some post somewhere the writer explained that he did dump his Dory and while he could get back in OK, it was a very wet re-entry and he was basically swamped even though vertical. Granted we should always sail safely and take precautions to not dump, but, a fairly dry re-entry is safer too (a vertical but swamped sailboat is just one wave away from dumping you in again, and again.)
I like the idea of pool floaties on both inside and outside on the gunwale tied to the inner rail scupper slots...simple, cheap, and would even provide some cushion for a side body roll re-entry. A person could even cover them with Sunbrella..
Has anyone ever pulled on the daggerboard to begin the righting process? Will it take the stress?
That makes me think....a daggerboard that has fallen out in the capsize wouldnt be good...has anyone done anything to keep the daggerboard in? I heard the idea of putting a pad eye on each side of the daggerboard trunk and simply a shock cord thru the handle slot...
Sorry to discuss Dory's on this thread..hopefully something here of value to the Jimmy Skill folks!
Curt
i think Old Yeller hit the nail on the head.
there is a difference between flotation in a boat (sail or motor) that is there to prevent the sinking of the vessel vs a boat design that is meant to be self recoverable.
it would be interesting to see john of CLC to weigh in. i suspect the parameters are fairly easy to recognize.
like Old Yeller, i find it hard to fathom any of the open sailboat designs as being self recoverable or any fo the rowboat/motorboat hulls with perhaps the exception of the expedition wherry as being reliably self recoverable from a swamping or a capsize.
i have competively raced dinghys from closed hull laser's and sunfish to open hull dyer dhows and penguins. none of the open hulled boats were self recoverable if we went over. my only recollection of an open hulled boat that was nominally self recoverable is an optimist dinghy with large floatation bags that took up a significant amount of the hull volume and strong, light crew. but even then, if the weather got really rough, we were routinely fishing exhausted kids out of the water with a safety boat.
it's important to recognize the reasonable capabilities of your craft as part of the safety equation.
howard
Actually Curt, the higher a sailboat floats on its side, the more the mast is already pointing downward, and the more the hull's center of gravity rotates further beyond its center of buoyancy, creating a stronger coupling of forces that wants to push the mast under. The stronger force of the wind on the bottom of the high-floating hull also contributes to the problem. To prevent the boat from turtling, it helps to have a light buoyant sealed mast. Some boats use foam flotation panels that can be rigged to the heads of their sails. The higher a hull floats, the faster the wind can also blow it away from you--maybe faster than you can swim! The only real advantage (but it's a good one) is that the boat will have less water in it after it is righted.
Pulling down steadily on the centerboard or daggerboard is the standard way to right a small boat, and the quicker you can begin to do that, the less likely the boat is to turtle. If you can't quickly swing your legs over the gunwale onto the board it is better to drop into the water immediately and swim under or around an end to where you can reach up and grab the board. If you try to stay dry by staying aboard the hull, your weight will quickly push the mast further under.
Your question about keeping the daggerboard in place is also a good one. There are various simple ways to rig bungee cord to hold it in any position while you are sailing, and to keep it available for capsize recovery. Pivoting centerboards, too, can pivot back into their trunks after a capsize (especially if the boat turtles), and some sailors attach something near the tip of the board that will enable them to pull it back out if that should happen.
It's good to anticipate and plan for as many possible scenarios as you can, but there really is no substitute for practicing self rescue. First in calm water, and then--with help standing by--in the sort of conditions you would expect to find yourself in after a real capsize. It's all part of this great game.
Old Yeller
Great comments, and I understand all the points above...owned many different types of sailboats over 35 years of sailing. My main interest was to encourage you to watch this short video of one of the premier distance sailors of CLC boats (and notice his 2 float bags and 2 pool noodles)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyK3TYNEs1w
Old Yeller said: "Extra floation along the sides would help the boat come up drier. Float bags or even boat fenders could be lashed under the gunwales."
Spot on, so we're all saying the same thing. Whatever boat I'm in, and whatever water I'm on, I plan to be safe, but want to be ready for the unlikely event of dumping and be able come up dry enough to have even just a lttle bit of helm. I'm not planning to do the air bags fore and aft, but I do like the idea of pool noodles or fenders (even better, thanks Old Yeller) on the sides.
PS: Re: "none of the open hulled boats were self recoverable if we went over." Respectfully disagree. We'd have a lot of day sailor drownings if that were true. I've never seen a day sailor boat that could not be righted by a qualified crew.
PS again RE: "there is a difference between flotation in a boat (sail or motor) that is there to prevent the sinking of the vessel vs a boat design that is meant to be self recoverable." Totally agree and, from what I've read, the CLC NE Dory floatation is to prevent sinking, not aid in a drier recovery, so perhaps the fenders at the gunwale would be good if you're going into open water for multiple reasons!
Hi again Curt (if the last post was from you),
I'm glad a couple of my comments may have been useful. But the real take-away from all of this should be the crucial importance of practicing self rescue under realistic conditions. It is simply not enough to make even educated guesses about what might be possible. Adding minimal amounts of extra flotation might offer only the comfort of a false sense of security.
I have found that "self rescue" and "capsize recovery" often seem to mean different things to different people. These CLC boats would be simple to right and reboard, but very hard to un-swamp. If help is unavailable and the water is cold, you probably will not drown, but if you can't get your body out of the water hypothermia could still kill you. If you can't un-swamp the boat, it will be almost impossible to sail or row it for any distance. It will be time to call for help, and hope your call is heard.
Old Yeller
Thanks for chiming in John. This version with seat tanks reminds me of Graham Byrnes' Spindrift series of stitch-and-glue dinghies, which are fine sailers indeed!
Old Yeller
Those are good ones, like everything Graham ever drew. I'm a big fan of his.
Yes, I was lucky enough to sail Graham's own S12 at Sail Oklahoma in October. Now I want to build one, but with the lug rig from his Amanda. Surprisingly excellent boats.
agreed, definitions are important.
in the context of what i wrote, by self rescue, i meant the normal crew could recover from a swamping or a capsize without outside assistance and get the craft sailing or moving again and return home.
so with respect to swamping, a 'conceptual' open hulled boat (whose only buyoancy is created by the hull form), will sink.
in order to be self recoverable, you either have to close off sections of the hull or add properly secured flotation (which is equivelent to closing off sections of the hull), so the boat can be swamped but still maintain enough buoyancy to stay on its lines/maintain stability and if required, to be bailed without reswamping, and be sailed away.
so as old yeller recognized, there is a lot of space between sinking and self recoverable.
surfboads, paddle boards, windsurfers are probably the best examples (absent a hull breach) of 'closed hull' boats that are self recoverable.
lasers and sunfish are other concrete examples of boats whose hulls are primarily closed and are designed to be routinely self-recoverable from being swamped.
dyer dhows and penguins (and a simple rowboat or canoe) are concrete examples of boats that are primarily open hulled and while they often have flotation and won't sink, are incredibly difficult to unswamp without outside assistance once that has occurred.
it's hard to talk about 'day sailors' in the same terms as open or closed hulled boats. 'day sailor' is really a term about the expected use of the boat....and not a desciption of the design/approach to maintaining buoyancy. based on what i routinely see on the water, most popular day sailors/dinghys today are primarily biased towards closed hull desgin attributes.
that said, old yeller has it right when he suggests taking the boat to a safe place and actually giving a swamping/capsizing a go. that has been a pretty routine and enlightening experience in my dinghy racing background and is often part of the beginning of the racing season exercises (for both sailors and rescue crews).
its pretty interesting to see what can go wrong that can prevent you from rescuing yourself. everything from the mundane, like forgetting to secure dagger boards or bailers or flotation properly, to the unexpected, like a lifejacket with buckles that hangs up on the deck as you try to squirm back on board, to simply not having the upper body strength or understanding of technique required to re-board and empty out the boat.
Agreed. Performing your own tests under realistic (but safe) conditions is the only way to discover what is possible for YOU (not someone else) to accomplish. Individual experience, strength and endurance are crucial but often neglected factors.